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Jill Carstens Writer

Colorado Soul Stories, a new Colorado podcast hosted by Mama Jill interviewing local creatives, place makers, outdoor lovers
New episodes drop every 2 weeks!
Writer Jill Carstens at Union Station Denver History Colorado

I'm starting a podcast! Honoring special people and places that make Colorado so wonderful. ETA for launch is end of June, stay tuned!

Sitting on one of the original benches in Union Station, Denver.

Read Teague Bohlen's Westword article about my book:
Review of Book Getting Over Vivian by Jill Carstens
Find Getting Over Vivian at these Independent Booksellers:
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  • Tattered Cover, East Colfax, Denver
  • Petals and Pages, 965 Santa Fe Dr. Denver
  • West Side Books, W. 32nd Ave, Denver Highlands
  • Colorado State University Bookstore, Fort Collins
  • Salida Books, F Street, Salida, CO
  • Maria's Bookshop, 960 Main Ave, Durango, CO
  • Buena Vista Library, BV, CO
  • If you can't go in person to these indie booksellers, Amazon carries it!
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Memoir Book for sale by Jill Carstens, Getting Over Vivian
QR code to purchase book Getting Over Vivian
Teague Bohlen, author, writer for Westword and UCD professor
Transcript of Part 1:

 Hey there. Welcome to Colorado Soul Stories. This is Mama Jill, and we're back at Stewart Street Studios. I don't think you'll hear the dog 'cause she seems to be taking a nap. I'm here with TAs Bolen, who is a Colorado Book Award winner, a associate professor of creative writing at UCD, and some of you might know him for his articles in Westward.

Welcome, Taj. 

Thank you for having me. 

So glad to have you here. We'll start off with the fact that you've got a book coming out in less than a month. Another book. 

Yeah, 

yeah, 

yeah. Uh, escaping Denver is the name of it, which, uh, uh, I wrote in Westward. I wrote an article for Westward, sort of introducing it, and I said in that article that it's ironic that I ended up writing a, a, a novel with that title because that was my plan.

Get, get the hell out of Denver, move here and get the hell out. Move and then get the hell out. Um, yeah, five years was my plan, uh, and uh, that did not happen. Um, much like in the book, it's hard to, it's easy to get in and hard to get out. Uh, so 

can't afford to get out. 

Can't. Yeah. That's, yeah. Yeah. Uh, so yeah, it, it was a, uh.

It was an amazing sort of coincidence that, or maybe it was that whole, that old aphorism about success being a combination of luck and readiness. Uhhuh, because I, I actually met the creators of the podcast that the novel is sort of adjacent to, um, uh, they were from, uh, they're from Canada. Uh, and they were writing this podcast about, uh, this sort of conspiracy theory novel set under Denver International Airport.

And I heard about it and got assigned to write about it for Westward. And I did, I interviewed them and it was cool. And they were sort of nerds like me. Uh, and uh, and they ended up, um, uh, doing that podcast for a couple years. And I, they're still doing it. Mm-hmm. The fifth season is just dropping, I think, next week.

Oh, okay. Yeah. And that's the final season of the podcast, at least the story that they're telling. Okay. And, uh, they, uh, I, I interviewed them a second time because they were talking with TV producers at the time. Um, and I don't know where that is right now in the process, but, um, I did interview them twice.

Yeah. And both times they were great fun to talk to. And then, uh, just last year, early summer, I think it was, I had heard. From a former student of mine, uh, David Slaton mm-hmm. Who is a, a Denver author. Oh. Uh, and, uh, he works for, he writes, uh, novels for Blackstone Publishing, and he happened to mention kind of offhandedly, Hey, Blackstone's looking for someone to write something, um, like just sort of work for hire kind of thing.

And I I, I really On a lark. Yeah. I thought, well, that might be kind of fun. I didn't even know it was escaping Denver at the time. Um, and I got in touch with him and I was like, oh, I know what that is. So they, 

they pitched that to you to write and you were already knew about it. And I already 

knew about it.

He wasn't even pitching it to me. He was just sort of putting it out there and saying, Hey, they're, they're looking for someone. And so I got in touch with them and they remembered me from the interviews that I did for Westward. And they said, yeah, let's do it. Let's do it. And, and it was great because I, what I didn't know when I was kind of looking into the job was that it was really a standalone novel.

It wasn't a novelization of the podcast. It was its own thing. Yeah. And what they really wanted was a writer who knew. How to write a novel because they did not, as they will readily admit, um, the podcast people. The podcast people. Yes. Right. Yeah. And, uh, they wanted a writer to come in and create this sort of standalone novel that was in that world.

Mm-hmm. But otherwise, unattached 

different characters, different 

characters, different everything. 

But it mentions the podcast and um, it does mention 

the podcast. Yeah. The, the cool conceit of the novel is that the podcast is a real, uh, life thing in the narrative world of, uh, of, of, of the, of the novel.

Yeah. So the podcast exists and the characters are actually responding to the podcast in terms of what they do. Yeah. They're going out to, to verify if the podcast is a real thing. Yeah. In, in part. 

Yeah. I mean, so I started reading, uh, reading your book, so I got a advanced copy. I got lucky. I highly recommend it.

It's a page turner. I was on the edge of my seat. I I see a movie, you know? Definitely. Yeah. We will have to hear how that progresses. Yeah. That possibility. I'll keep you posted. Fingers crossed. Absolutely. Yeah, 

that'd be great. 

You know, so it starts off kind of just mystery adventure, but then it, it turns into what I would call maybe fantasy.

How would you 

I think it's, I mean it's what genre is that? Uh, you know, genres are so. Interchangeable. It's all marketing, you know? Yeah. It's, it's really all marketing. I, I think it's fantasy sci-fi, conspiracy thriller. Yeah. It, it draws from a lot of different things for sure. It sure does. It really does.

It's, it was designed and, and part of the fun of it is just how, how available, uh, it is to include whatever we wanted to throw in there. Yeah. So the, the, the podcast was sort of the same way. I mean, like, for a podcast that was really all about escaping this, uh, sort of conspiratorial, uh, labyrinth under DIA, uh, they had, you know, Bigfoot was a character.

Oh, they did? Okay. I haven't gotten this far. So they're the, they, they were definitely embracing the crypted sort of stuff. Yes. Uh, and so that was a big part of what they wanted, uh, me to sort of explore in the development of the novel was, you know, whatever you're into see about throwing it in there. Wow.

And so I was able to really just go nuts and have fun. Okay. Uh, and explore these different aspects of not only science fiction, but some fantasy stuff too. And, um, I think it's definitely still based in the real world, but Yeah. Um, uh, but it's, you know, it's a, it's a breezy read that's meant to just be fun.

Absolutely. Yeah. Although I. I had a lot of questions at the end. 

Okay. 

Um, which we're not, you know, we're not gonna spoil anything, so I'm gonna have to just live with that. 

But do, there, there are some, I, I can't help. I mean, I'm a, I'm as, as interested in politics and, and, uh, uh, the truth being out there mm-hmm.

To borrow something from the X-Files, but I'm, I'm, I couldn't help but throw some, there's some philosophy in there. Oh, I appreciated 

that. There's, there's some, 

you know, there's some literary, uh, uh, reference, there's some film reference, there's, there's a lot of stuff, uh, which is 

served through the variety of characters you provided.

Yes. Yeah. I love that. Yes. When you can get to know this group. So I wrote in my notes as I was reading it, it's, it's a cross between, um, you know, whenever you have a group mm-hmm. Whether we've talked about, even just the show friends, you know? Right. That you get to know them. 

Right. 

And care Yeah. About them or, or not like them or whatever you feel, you feel something.

Yes. When they're well developed. Yeah. And, and you, you know, I definitely got to know each character. I had a vision in my head for each character. Some of them, you know, people I know or Sure. Celebrities or whatever. But Yeah. When, when, you know, I think it was Walt, you know, it was well educated mm-hmm. And throw in stuff and then, and then Toby was kind of the, you know, naysayer half the time.

Right. Or just didn't wanna be there. 'cause 

he's a film student, so he's got all the movie, the the movie 

stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So did you, so I, I of course read about TAs before I interviewed him, and I, I read some stuff about your childhood. Mm-hmm. And d and d was mentioned. Yes. Yeah. And I was gonna ask you that.

'cause so my son's girlfriend plays d and d and I asked her about some of these, um, if did she know some of this crypted lore? But she do not. So that's not connect. The crypt stuff doesn't really from 

d and d Connect. There's some, there's some really deeply buried d and d references. Okay. But you'd have to be a real geek me to, I mean, yeah.

And be in the, even then be in the right mind space to notice it. There was more of a fun thing that I was doing in the process. I, as an author, I've always believed that that books are doing things that, uh, uh, that are completely invisible to a reader. Yeah. There, there are ways that a writer will invest something of themselves.

They're almost like planting our own Easter eggs. Like, this actually is a reference to this thing from my life that no one's gonna know about. But I'll recognize it whenever I have to read the book I either at, at a reading or just to experience it in the world. So it's kinda a fun secret with yourself.

Yeah, it is. It is. I mean, it's, it's a very, I mean, you might not be the only person that gets that reference, but you're gonna be a, one of a very small circle. Okay. Okay. Yeah. 

So did you have to do a little bit of research on some of those? Um, um. You know, I encrypted. 

I didn't, no, I didn't. Uh, I wish to some degree.

I mean, I did do some research just to verify. 

Okay. 

Um, certain details, uh, but almost, I can't think of anything that I went looking for and just sort of discovered and said, oh, that's cool. 

Okay, 

I'll put that in this. This was all just outta of my head. 

You had these things, so I did look up some stuff.

Yeah. 'cause I'm like, I want, did he make that up or do other people believe in this? Like the, I can't say the name of the dogs, but How do you say that too? Oh, 

Chupa, Cabra. 

Chupa. Cabra. It reminds me of Chewbacca a little, 

right? Yeah. Not 

at all, like Chewbacca, because he's a little more friendly, little more like Bigfoot looking, but, but, um, and that's a definite, lots of lure about those.

Oh yeah. Tons about that. Yeah. 

And some of that came from the podcast. The Chupacabras were from the podcast. Yeah. And, and so we were. Borrowing liberally from the podcast in ways that wouldn't make it so that you had to, to yeah. To listen to the podcast in order to understand the novel and vice versa.

You don't have to read the novel to understand the podcast. These things are very independent. Even where there's crossover, it's sort of like bonus material for people who are, who are taking in both of those 

Yeah. 

Narrative sources. 

No, I definitely got that when I started listening to the podcasts. It's, they're companions to each other.

They are, yeah. But you don't have to. 

Absolutely. Yes. 

Uh, do you think there'll be another one, another book, or is it too early to say 

that? I, I, I know we're all hoping and planning for it. Okay. I mean, I, I'm sure it depends on how well this one does, but, uh, but I know that the, the guys on the creative team up in Canada really want to do it, and I mm-hmm.

Okay. I'm, I'm totally game for it, and I'm already taking notes on 

Yeah. 

Things I wanna include in Okay. In, in, in that next one. I can totally 

see it. I mean, 

yeah. Yeah. I mean, this one, it's not, I don't know if that it, that it ends on a cliffhanger per se, but it's definitely open to where it 

was for me, where I'm like, damnit, what happens?

Yeah, 

there's, there's, there's closure. I hope there's closure. There's a little bit, but there's, yeah. But, uh, but there's certainly lingering questions. Yeah. I mean, there's, there's, and I think that's pretty natural in terms of a a, a group going out to find the truth. You're not gonna find the whole truth in one.

Pretty little package. 

No. 

Uh, so, so 

I respect that. Yeah. 

Yeah. I respect 

that. I mean, I'm kind of like to tie things up. I very much did that in my own book, but not that that really is how my life is. It's 

Right. 

So that fancy, that's the balancing 

though, right? Of of, of an, any kind of ending, whether you're talking about an article or you're talking about a novel or a short story or any piece of writing, it has to have a sense of finality.

I tell my students this all the time. It's all smoke and mirrors. It's all illusion. There's no, life doesn't have endings, uh, until the big one. Right. There's, there's, there's, we have chapters. Yeah. We definitely have, have chapters. And you have to invest enough closure, enough of a spirit of ending to the end of a, of a piece of writing so that people get to the end and are satisfied.

They may still want more, but they're also satisfied. Yeah. That's the magic trick you're trying to pull off. Okay. Um, and, and it's very, it's very, it's a very tough trick. It's a very tough trick. And even professional authors don't always hit that mark. 

Right. Yeah. Is that, so in your teaching writing mm-hmm.

I mean, is that something you talk about, I'm assuming? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. 

Endings are one of those things that, uh, I think students are rightfully afraid of. Yeah. Um, because, and I think most writers are, you, you talk to a writer or an aspiring writer rather, and chances are very good that they're gonna have a drawer full of story starts.

Yeah. They're gonna have a, they're gonna have a. Uh, I say a drawer as though I'm living in like typewriter era. Right. But wasn't that long ago. They have a, they have a, a, you know, they have a, a lot of stories that they've begun and just sort of abandoned an idea. Yeah. Um, in the middle be, and, and I think the biggest reason for that is that endings are hard.

Yeah. And, and you don't, and there's a part of you that gets emotionally attached, oh my god. To the story and the characters in the world and you don't want it to end. And so you kind of just let it keep 

going. Yeah. 

You either you keep it going or you let it, or you let it, let it drop. And somehow that's easier.

So I read a, just a, something you said about, um, what would you say to your younger self about writing? Mm-hmm. And, um, I always think that's a good question. Um, or, you know, looking back about any question, um, but you said, uh, just write Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. In a nutshell and in the little bit that I've taught, um, mostly teenagers and a few adult classes, that's what I would say for Just get it out.

Yeah. Get it out and then we'll go back. 

Right. 

Even this young lady, she was writing her college essay and she just wasn't an, it's not like she journaled or anything, like some of my other kids I've taught. And so I gave her some questions that had nothing to do with it. And, and they were wonder, she wrote wonderfully.

And so we just took those and went from there and put it into a form. Um, you know, so. So is that maybe how a class might start? Do you have people just start? Absolutely. 

Uh, yeah, I have them, uh, at every level. Really. I have an exercise that happens in the first week to make them write something new. Yeah.

Uh, because the, the farther up you go, the more you ma matriculate through a creative writing major, um, the more backlog of stories that you already have written. Yeah. Um, and maybe they're not finished, but you've already written them for the most part. And so making them do something new mm-hmm. Instead of kind of, you know, I had a professor once, um, that, uh, said, you've gotta stop polishing the trophy case.

You have to actually like, go out there and like, compete again. Okay. Because it was one of those things where I was editing and editing and editing older stuff. Yeah. Trying to perfect it. And I think, you know, he was making the point that you, you can't just do that. You have to, you have to do that, but you also have to create new stuff.

Yeah. Um, yeah. 

And, and polishing is never ending. 

No. It's, it is never ending. That's the, you know, it, you could keep going with it. 

I mean, I, I, my book was published by a very small publisher and when it happened, you know, you sit there and like, nobody else might ever ask me, so I'm gonna do this. But I had this like, you know, but it might not be done yet.

Right, right. You know? Yeah. 

I was terrified. 

Yeah. 

And I got lucky. I'm just gonna point this out just for people that write or. Or think they can't write, or the ending part. I was, I was taking Fridays to write, so I was still teaching. Okay. Yeah. And my son would be at school, so I had the house to myself.

I'd write all day. Yeah. So I knew every week, okay, this is the day you're gonna write. This is probably what you're gonna write about. And one day I got a little burned out and went to lay down, turned on some like, ambient music, and I had kind of a i'll, I call it a vision. It was like a little dream and it fed me the ending.

Yeah. And I love my ending. Um, I don't know, I kind of don't care if anybody else, it kind of gave me closure about That's awesome. Yeah. Uh, my life. And it was, um, attached to, um, Jack Kerouac. Mm-hmm. On, on the road. Yeah. You know, something about the last thing. Right. That's what the last chapter is called.

But um. I feel like I got lucky with that. 'cause I got my ending before I finished writing. Yeah. And then that helped me put it in a little bit neater package. 

It does, it helps. I mean, it's the way I, I tend to write, I didn't write escaping Denver this way, but in every other long work that I've done, I always have, I use this technique that they sometimes call islanding technique where you're writing small blocks of narrative, um, at the beginning, a bunch in the middle and then, then at the end.

Okay. And then the idea is that that gives you a skeleton, um, yes. To then flesh out. Right. So you know what you're moving towards. Yeah. And the, the challenge of that form is that you have to be open to changing direction as you go. And sometimes that ending that you had originally written, you're not gonna get there.

Yeah. You're not, for whatever reason, the story that you're building up to that point isn't, it's going somewhere else. It's going somewhere else. Yeah. And you have to 

be okay with, you know, that. And that's something I find maybe harder for some people. Mm-hmm. You know, and everybody writes differently. I, I used to listen a lot to, uh, I listened to how Amer towels wrote.

Oh my God, he mm-hmm. He sits aside five years. Mm-hmm. Have, oh my God. Yeah. He wrote, uh, my favorite is a, a gentleman in Moscow, but, and he is very specific about his outline and his uhhuh. You know, I can't, I can't do that. 

I could not do that either. Okay. I could not do that. I do talk about that with my students.

Sure. And we talk about stories like that. And, you know, they say that. These are all apocryphal, obviously, but the, but they say, they say that Tolstoy wrote 50,000 words on every character he ever put into a novel before he even put them in the novel. So he essentially was writing a book about that character before he would write them into a book.

Well, I 

believe that having tried to read Yes, that is true. Peace. It's believable with 

Tolstoy. Maybe, but, but, but I, but I do think that it's, you know, you do have to know those characters, uh, really, really, really well. Yeah. But I think there is an organicness to the process of writing well that you, you can't discount, or at least you discount at your own peril.

Yeah. I, I think there are writers that organize far more than I tend to. Mm-hmm. Um, and they do it successfully. And that's cool. Uh, everyone has their own process, but, um, you can sometimes see it. I mean, I read a lot and I, and I'll sometimes read a, a book, um, usually it's more, are sort of intellectually driven, the prose as opposed to narratively driven.

Okay. And that's not my favorite kind of writing. I agree. Just in general. But, but I can, the, one of the problems I have with it is sometimes you can see the artifice way too clearly, Uhhuh. You can see what they're doing. And there's no surprise. There's no surprise. It's, it feels very. Didactic. It feels, it feels almost forced in places because they're, you can see them hewing to a, an agenda.

Yeah. That, that they clearly have. And you know, I just, I don't know. I think there has to be a little chaos in there. Yeah. Uh, and 

I like that organic, you know, to me that's more artful. Mm-hmm. And there's different ways to approach Sure. Writing and reading. And so some people might have more analytical and appreciate that.

Yeah. 

Kind of more obvious. Um, 

we have that at, uh, copper Nickel, uh, the literary magazine. Yes. That I, I help edit. Um, and on the fiction side, we have a really great cadre of, of readers, um, that come from very different perspectives. Mm-hmm. And I'm sort of the traditional narrative guy. Like, I want robust characters.

I wanna, I wanna see the setting, I want to feel it. Yes. I wanna, you know, I want the, the, the, the dialogue to ring true. I want there to be dialogue. Uh, 'cause a lot of, you know, anyway, so, but we have, I have other, other teammates on, uh, on that, on that team that focus on very different things and write very differently.

Yeah. And it's a great combination. Well, that gives it variety. It does, yeah. For a literary journal. It does. So that, in 

that respect. That's good. Yeah. So let's go back to character development. Do you have, um, so that's the kind of writing that I, you know, we were just talking. Mm-hmm. You know, I wrote a memo more and I write, I news write, so I have never.

Develop fictional characters myself. Yeah. 

Yeah. 

So how does that start? 

I think you, uh, well, for escaping Denver, it started because, uh, all I was given from the team, they did give me more or less the cast that they wanted. Mm-hmm. Um, but it was just types. Literally, they would send me, they pulled a photo of some random person from the web to give me an idea of the physicality that they were talking about.

We didn't really stick to any of that, but, but it was an interesting thing to start from starting point. And then really qualities like we knew Yeah. We knew that. Well, um, they didn't even have names. I was naming them. They said there's this sort of, uh, high school teacher type who, you know, is very earnest and, you know, he's a dad and you know, the, all these different, but it was all, he was kind of 

the dad of the group.

He was, yeah. Yeah, he 

is. And then the, you know, they, so they have these traits, right. And this is an exercise I have my students do too. Okay. I'll be like, you have to over detail a character to really get to understand who they are and how they're, they will react. And if you understand a character well enough, you can just put them into a scene and sort of just hit the on button.

Yeah. And see and sort of mentally watch what they do and how they act and what they say. What would that 

person have said? Yeah. Right. 

You just, but you have to know them first. You can't, you can't be operating from, uh, a completely blank slate. Yeah. So the part of it is just knowing enough about them before you put them into a scene that, uh, they can operate freely within that scene in a true feeling way.

Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Would you say that in order to do that you would be a observant person of people and of just life in general? 

I think most authors are, I think most writers are. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I think so, and I don't think the, this goes back to like this idea that writers have to wear many hats. Like the, the fact that I'm a novelist and, uh, I also write flash fiction and I also write articles for westward, uh, and I dabble in creative nonfiction.

Those don't feel that different to me, even though mm-hmm. The products might, might be presented very differently. Yeah. Uh, one of my goals in a article that I write for Westward is to give a sense of the person who I'm writing about who is doing the thing that is the reason that I got the article in the first place.

Yeah. Right. So, uh, just for example, I'm, I'm working on a couple of articles that, uh, are about, uh, uh, arts in the prison environment. And so I'm actually talking about, uh, the people who are doing that work as much as I'm talking about the work itself, because that's how we access idea. We, we access. Truth, if you will, through character perspective.

And that's the only way we can access it. Connection. Yeah. It's the, it's the reason like human connection. Absolutely. Yeah. It's, it's the, it is the reason why literary pursuit literacy itself is, is just sort of training for being an em, uh, empathic person. Right. That's, it's, it's how you understand and come to accept that other people are gonna have other experiences.

And that's not only okay, it's like, it's really cool. 

It's very cool. It's what makes 

all of this interesting. 

And I feel like, um, we need more of that for sure. 'cause we're so detached right now. Mm-hmm. If this was written down, I would underline all of what you just said because I, I often say I, I mean, my husband and I are very opposite.

I mean, we're, we're, we're good together that way, but sometimes he thinks I'm weird, right? I mean, he's word too, but I'll be analyzing a friend or something. 

Right, right. And I'll be 

like, how do you see that? We're, I'll analyze something he did. And he was like, how? I didn't mean it that way, you know? And I'm like, are you sure?

You know, 'cause I do notice all these. Things, but I may perhaps don't have enough artsy friends that could maybe kind of identify with and Yeah. And me not feel like I'm being this, uh, weirdo that's analyzing everybody or something. But I'm curious. 

Yeah. You have to be curious. Yeah. As a writer, I think as an artist of any type mm-hmm.

You have to have a curiosity about what you're taking in from the world and how you feel about it, how you're contextualizing it, and how you witness someone else doing the same thing. 'cause it's probably not in the same way that you're, you are in that moment. And so I have my students do different exercises throughout a semester that, that sort of are about this very thing.

I have them do one where they go and eavesdrop on a conversation in a public place, and then they transcribe it and, and they come back, you know, later to transcribe it. Yeah. And then they have to turn it into a dialogue and it, and it does so many different things, um, that exercise. It, it's about how dialogue isn't, is, is again, an illusion.

It's not precise. Dialogue is Yes. Not the way we speak in real life. We're not. Right. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. And so, uh, there's a lot of differences there, but it's also about understanding a character in a way that is outside of you. And that is absolutely necessary practice for a writer of, again, of any type.

I mean, I think good articles are always, you know, at least some part of that writer responding to what they're experiencing in. The subject. And, and so, you know, you've gotta practice all of those things. And, and I think it, it, it behooves most writers to recognize that early on. Yeah. Because it's easier to practice when you're doing it purposefully.

And then that is, is, I mean, there's so many benefits to that. Yeah. And being able to see other perspectives. Yes, yes. And outside of our own, you know, and, and yeah. Challenge ourselves a little bit. Um, yeah. 

That's why I think most writers have some sort of recording device that they carry with them all the time.

It's much easier now with smartphones. Yeah. But back in the day, I remember most writers that I knew had a little pad of paper and a writing utensil stuck through the spirals. Uh, well that's still 

me right here. Here's my, it's even spiral. There you go. From the Dollar Store. I've got 'em all over the place.

I need to graduate to that. 

No, I, I'm a big, I, I don't think so. I still do a lot of my writing freehand first, just 'cause I think there's, my only complaint 

is some young writers have interviewed me and they're young, so, and some of 'em were students and they just, um, the speech to text messed up. Oh 

yeah.

And some, some word I said turned into confetti and they printed it. It was about the pulse, preserving the, and it was, you know, kind of an important thing. Yeah. And I said, I wouldn't have said confetti. I'm like, can you, you know what I, I, I think, I think we need to fix that. Right, 

right. 

And then I just said, just at FYI, if something seems.

A little off that way. Uhhuh, you might wanna, it's fine. Very acceptable. Go to back to your source and confirm. Absolutely. 

Confirm 

young lady. 

Yeah. This is why I don't use speech to text stuff. Well, I, I, it, it, it has never been, it has not been perfected. Mm-hmm. And it just, I don't, I don't know. I don't know that it ever could be really.

I mean, I thank God so we can 

still have jobs, you know? Right, right. Yeah. I mean, my goodness

  I am going to pause our conversation here in the next episode with writer Taj Bolen. We will discuss his upbringing in the Midwest and how it influenced his writing career. We'll continue to talk about the writing process and how he arrived in Denver in the late 1990s. He and I commiserate over the changes that have occurred in Denver over the last 20 years.

Ending with our shared fondness for a certain concrete frog at the playground at Rocky Mountain Lake Park in North Denver. Stay tuned for part two. 

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